In the past week, several antisemitic comments from public figures, including former President Trump and Ye, have sparked concern about the real-world implications of the statements. Dov Waxman, a professor and Chair of Israel Studies at UCLA, joined John Yang to discuss the recent rhetoric.
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Amna Nawaz: Several recent antisemitic comments from public figures, from former President Donald Trump to recording artists Ye, formerly known as Kanye West, have sparked concern once again about the rise of antisemitic rhetoric and the real-world consequences. John Yang has a conversation with the latest.
John Yang: Amna, over the weekend, former President Trump posted some disturbing comments to his social media app, TRUTH Social.
They included this: "No president has done more for Israel than I have. U.S. Jews have to get their act together and appreciate what they have in Israel before it is too late." White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre denounced that post as antisemitic. It plays on the old trope that American Jews have a dual loyalty to Israel. Many also saw that last phrase, "before it is too late," as a threat. The post came just days after the musical artists Ye was suspended from Twitter and Instagram after saying Jewish people are trying to blackball him and tweeting that he would go DEFCON 3 on Jewish people. Dov Waxman is director of the Y&S Nazarian Center for Israel Studies and a professor of political science at the University of California, Los Angeles. His most recent book is "The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: What Everyone Needs to Know." Mr. Waxman, thanks so much for joining us. Are you concerned that comments like these from people like these, from a former president, from a megastar recording — recording star can spread antisemitic sentiments more widely? Dov Waxman, Author, "The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: What Everyone Needs to Know": Absolutely. I think the real danger here is that both President Trump's remarks and Kanye West's have the danger of normalizing antisemitism, of legitimizing it. I mean, these are people who have a huge number of followers, particularly on social media. And when they're coming out and saying this, it kind of gives license to many other people to also express antisemitic statements. And it really signals a wider, I think, mainstreaming of antisemitism in our political discourse today. And that's really a worrying development.
John Yang: You know, in the past, when former President Trump has been accused of using antisemitic rhetoric, he's defended himself by pointing to his daughter's family, who's Jewish, and to his support for Israel. What's your response to that?
Dov Waxman: Well, I think both of those things are really irrelevant to the question of whether he is or isn't an antisemite. I mean, as a side point, I don't think he is actually antisemitic, but he certainly traffics in antisemitic stereotypes. He repeats antisemitic ideas. He may himself not personally hate Jews. But I think we should also bear in mind that supporting Israel or having Jewish family members doesn't mean that one can't be antisemitic. There are antisemites who have support and who still support Israel, and there are antisemitic people who may have Jews in their family. So neither of those things, I think, disprove the claim that Trump is himself an antisemite. But I think the more important issue is not what he feels or the feelings he has towards Jews, but, rather, the way in which he repeats antisemitic stereotypes and encourages antisemitism in — among his followers and signaling to many of his supporters that those kinds of ideas are acceptable.
John Yang: So much of this current discussion is about former President Trump and conservative voices. But, of course, Democratic Representative Ilhan Omar has been criticized in the past for her comments, saying that congressional support for Israel is based on money, not principle. Is this a problem, or do you see a problem on the Democratic side as well?
Dov Waxman: I think antisemitism is a concern on all sides of the political spectrum. Antisemitic ideas, stereotypes, ways of thinking can come up across the political spectrum, and left, right or center. But I think we have to be clear that the great danger of antisemitism in the United States today and the most deadly forms of antisemitism are coming quite clearly from the right. So, while statements about the power of the pro-Israel lobby or allusions to its control over Congress can certainly draw upon old antisemitic ideas, I don't think we should equate that with the kind of mainstreaming of antisemitic conspiracy theories that is happening today within the Republican Party in the form of the kind of Replacement Theory or the demonization of George Soros, which happens on an almost daily basis.
John Yang: There are times when criticisms and debate over Israeli policies, particularly Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people, can trigger accusations or denunciations of antisemitism. What's the line there? Where's the line?
Dov Waxman: Well, that's the million-dollar question. And everybody, I think, draws the line in a different place. I mean, people recognize that not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. I think that principle is widely recognized. But where exactly criticism of Israel crosses the line into antisemitism is much debated. In my view, criticism of Israel becomes antisemitic when it draws upon antisemitic stereotypes, antisemitic ideas or tropes or representations of Jews, in other words, when Israel is kind of depicted in the same ways that Jews were once depicted in antisemitic literature and antisemitic discourse, or when Israel is accused of kind of secretly engaging in conspiracies, where Israel is blamed for all sorts of world events, be it the 9/11 terrorist attack or the invasion of Iraq or even the COVID-19 pandemic. When you have that kind of conspiracy theory about Zionism and about Israel, that is also classically antisemitic.
John Yang: I want to ask you about a tweet that my colleague Morgan Till spotted them this morning. It's from Elon Musk. It's since been taken down. It shows Donald Trump, Elon Musk and Kanye West as the three Musketeers, Kanye West with Parler, Trump with TRUTH Social, and, of course, Elon Musk is — says he's intent on buying Twitter. And Musk's caption is: "In retrospect, it was inevitable." Does this convergence on social media give you concern?
Dov Waxman: Yes, I think, really, what we're seeing is the way — is antisemitism really being trafficked on social media. It's not necessarily — it's not altogether clear that antisemitism is growing in terms of attitudes among the American public. What is happening, though, is that antisemitism is being expressed continually, on a constant basis on social media. And it's very often being amplified through the algorithms that social media uses. And so I think the real danger is in the ways in which social media now is spreading antisemitic ideas.
John Yang: Are those ideas becoming more socially acceptable to say out loud, to express?Dov Waxman: Yes, I think that's the change. It is not necessarily that more people are subscribing to antisemitic ideas, but that the kind of taboo that may have existed to some extent in the past against expressing antisemitic ideas, that taboo is really ending. And I think Kanye West's comments and Trump's comments and many other celebrities' comments about Jews have that effect of eroding this taboo against the expression of antisemitism and making antisemitism increasingly acceptable in mainstream public discourse. And that is a very alarming development, because, from accepting antisemitism in speech and language, that can also ultimately lead to antisemitic acts and antisemitic violence.